| WFC MEMBER |
| Bob & Diana Vincent |
How did you get started in fantails?
My dad and I raised various birds from pheasants, migratory ducks and
Canada geese from the time I was about 9 years old. I was always trapping blue
jays and cardinals and putting them in with the Wood ducks. One day my dad came
home with a pair of racing pigeons, and that was it. An old gentleman I met in
town was at the end of his showing career and had 2 or 3 pair in most
breeds. Over the winter he would not split them up and by spring he was over run
with mongrels. These were all mine!!!!! I used to fly EVERYTHING. Then I met
Cecil Behr, renowned LFCL breeder. in my home town of Port Colborne, Ontario. He
introduced me to something called a pigeon show, and I swear the night before we
went I didn't sleep a wink. ( Something of a tradition still at pigeon
shows!!!). We hit several small shows and then I heard of a man that bred good
fantails. This man was Jack Buchanan. He took me under his wing and took me to the
big fantail shows in Canada. The Royal Winter Fair, and the Canadian National
Exhibition. At the CNE I met Paul Polly ( the judge at 19 years old), Steve
Wallace, Robert Stephens, and Roy and Brian Pogue and most of the "old timers"
in the Canadian fantail scene. I think I was 16 by then and Brian likely 15!
Here I found others my age also interested in fantails. That same show season
time I met Bob Pommer and Mike Boyd. MY buddy Phillipo was around then too but
I didn't meet him until 1980. I remember Roy Pogue offering me reds and
yellows at that first show( 1967?) which I declined, but it has taken me another 33
years to take up that challenge.
My mom tried to keep a few pair of fantails for me while I was at
university, but they never made the 4 years. So after graduation I had to find a
job and a loft. The job took me to western Canada, for 22 long cold winters.
Describe your loft set up and how many pairs do you usually bred from.?
My wife would say "Too Many" ...........and at times I think I do breed
from too many pair. But I have this vision of a fantail when I close my eyes
and I cant seem to avoid using a bird that has a piece of that puzzle. When I
was trying to get families and lines going I suppose I was as high as 75 pair,
but recently I have used 45 cocks. These cocks are all in individuals and are
backed up by a team of 40 pair of rollers and many hens. I am a firm believer
in individuals if you really want to squeeze the max out of every cock bird. My
except they are higher ( 20") because I think the cocks hit their wings on the
ceiling with anything less. Each pen is 3 feet long and made from welded steel.
These "batteries" are 3 individuals across and 3 high so there are 9 pens in
each, .all free standing outside in the sun and the wind and the rain. So with
5 sets of these I am ready for 45 cocks. The rollers are in a separate loft
10 feet by 24 feet, open bred, more Eggleston style. The young bird loft is 10
by 45 feet.
In the "off season" the partitions come out of these "batteries" and then
all of a sudden I have 15 shelves that are 9 feet by 2 1/2 feet. Here I place
various birds, sometimes old birds, sometimes questionable young, or even the
show teams. The ideal would be to have the birds in the individuals for 5
months and then not use those pens for the rest of the year. Similarly for the
before and I think it keeps the birds healthier and breaks any cycles of nasties.
I have seen people get a bug in their birds and take years to get rid of it,
if ever. Of course there isn't much that's a better sanitizer than a baking 108 F
Arizona sun! I am one loft short of having that system at the current time,
( or raising 100 too many babies)
Then I have a separate judging area with 4 walking pens permanently in
place and holding pens. I spend a good deal of time on this patio to the "guest
house". It is removed from the lofts so the birds cannot see or hear the
other birds. It also has a fridge, sink, TV and toilet. Next year I plan to add a
fan and lighting.
Do you medicate your birds and if so describe your program.?
I have always tried to stay away from medications. I started out doing
all the stuff that the books tell you, but found that if you do not bring in new
birds, and if you quarantine your show team, and if you keep the wild doves
away then you don't need all that stuff. I went 8 years in Canada without any
medicines, but I treated my show birds before, during and after the shows in a
building 1/8 mile away.
I hope everybody is vaccinating their birds for PMV1, this is a must and
I think anybody that takes a bird to a show that isn't vaccinated is
irresponsible both to themselves, and everybody else.
I do give my birds vitamins and electrolytes and I am a believer in
friendly bacteria. ( So much so that IF I bring a strange bird home I put the
droppings of my birds in its water. ) My quarantine setup here is not as good as I
had in Canada, but the birds are still a good 50 feet away, and with the
shelves I am not walking in the show teams litter and dragging it everywhere.
Things are very much different in the desert, what works here may not work
elsewhere. I was lucky that I had pigeon friends already here so I didn't have to
learn all over. BUT it is VERY different breeding in 108 F in a climate that favors
the arachnids of every description. You develop excellent peripheral vision.
Now all that said, I do give my birds brewers yeast, garlic, organic
iodine. Keeping them healthy is the key. If one gets sick,,, I kill it. I do not
mess with them. Even young birds I have found those that you mess with never
amount to anything, and even if they turn out to be a show bird do you really
want to breed from it? Last year I messed with a young silver that had tons of
potential. I forgot how weak it had been earlier and mailed it to my partner to
be part of our show team. It died the day after arriving. Keep them healthy
and you wont need all that stuff.
Now, I do keep antibiotics on hand and respectfully I decline to tell you
what I use because I think we are best to all use different antibiotics. Plus
as long as people are blanket treating their entire flocks on a regular and
unnecessary basis we better keep using a wide range of meds. If we should give
each other a bug at the shows we have a better chance of knocking it out when we
get home that way. I had terrible fertility in the first 2 rounds last year
after all the shows that the team of Diemer/Vincent showed at, but I broke down
and used the antibiotic and everything was fine. BUT to systematically use
this and that every quarter or before the breeding season I think is wrong.. If
you have to do that systematically to keep your birds healthy then the
problem lies in your loft or husbandry.
What does a fantail need to be a part of your program.?
I loved the answer Bill O'dell gave a couple of bulletins back to one of
your questions. Typical O'Dell. He answered the question in one sentence and
said more than most guys say in an entire article. He said something to the
effect that " if you want to advance then you have to use the extremes"..........
So my answer to the above question is "a piece of the puzzle"
BUT Ed you know me too well to leave it at that. McKee has said several
times "it depends where you are at"....... And that is a very true statement.
As you realize you are slipping somewhere you need to emphasize that a bit
more. Hopefully you still have it SOMEWHERE in your birds, if not hopefully your
buddy that is working similar blood still has it.
What faults will you not breed from.?
I have bred from head sliders, split tailed, peak crested, grouse legged,
web footed, hocked legged, blind, crippled, and stupid birds IF they had a
PIECE OF THE PUZZLE............ but not from a weakling............ Now what you
want is a bird that will throw the PIECE and not the trash. That's the trick.
And that's called progeny testing. Or as I have said too many times for some
"Its what they throw, not what they show". In order to do this you have to try a
lot of birds. Young cocks make up 50-60% of my team every year. But I do have
one 5 year old cock, three 4 year olds, and you wouldn't want any of them
I bet !!!!!!! I had used that 5 year old so much I thought I was done with
him, but decided to take him to the farthest blood I could find. Blood that had
not been shared since 1988. I put them together and raised some of my best
birds this year.......white, silver, dilute indigo, and a few "pieds". McKee
would call that "heterosis" and O'Dell might call it "tamed outcross".
Is there something that you think the fantails of today are lacking? If so, what?
There are a lot of good fantails that are lacking the right address. They
should be in Tucson!!!! I think that the pieces are all out there, and in the
fantail genepool. ( at least what we now consider the fantail genepool thanks
to those that made all the mongrels years back). The trick is to capture the
great feature and to break the linkages associated with it. When you break
that linkage DON'T go back. The big tails have their problems that come with the
package. The great diggers have their baggage too. The little dancing birds by
and large have their own problems too. Put all the good stuff from these birds
together and leave the baggage and you have a CHAMPION. Then try and
reproduce it!!!!
What advise would you give a fantail breeder just starting out?
HAVE FUN.....................Study the standard and formulate your
visualization of the ideal. Since it appears we will never get a consensus on a
drawing of the ideal, formulate your own. If the idea of breeding a bird like
that excites you then you are a fantail man. If the idea of just seeing that bird
in anyone's loft excites you then you are a fantail fancier. Try to get a copy
of the Bolton/Kingkinger article. Read everything you can get your hands on
especially from Ostrander, Champ and McKee. ( you might have to read McKee's
several times to unencrypt it) Get your hands on the old specials, or borrow
them if you can. Don't restrict yourself to fantail material. The racing guys
are way ahead of us in husbandry, and the chicken guys are very helpful.
Watch the judging and attend shows. Look for birds that show a little of
what you visualize and try to overlook the "baggage" on the first mating. Read
my article in the DEBUT special and try pulling the pieces out of the soup
and gradually leave the broth behind. Show your young birds and try to see why
you maybe didn't place as high as you hoped. Turn birds for a good judge and
talk to him between classes. When your bird comes out, take a good look at the
birds that beat it,,,, THEN take your bird to its cage ( Schabert saying).
Talk to Mr. Altpeter, anybody that has won the Central 17 times and had one of
the last 4 birds in the finals last year is the man to seek out.
When you feel you know where your birds are strong and weak develop a
plan. Don't bring in a bird without a good reason for doing it. Pump those
breeders. Try to get everything out of them in one year. Try your cocks on 3 hens
regardless of what color. You don't have to mate a blue hen to a blue cock. Make
your decision on which birds to breed the next year based on the young they
gave you with several mates. Study those young and find the common weakness that
parent threw for you. Learn from this and mate smarter the next year.
When you finally get that click mating use them all. There will be time
to share your good fortune with your friends when you have bred those young for
a year or two. You will be stronger for it and of even more help to your
friends down the road.
What part of the fancy do you enjoy the most?
I enjoy the breeding part the most. I think I would breed fantails if no
one else in the world did. I enjoy sitting with my buddy Earl Biedermann every
Sunday having a pint and looking at his or my new squeakers. I enjoy getting
that youngster that has the best of the parents even though I thought it was a
long shot when I put them together.
Second for me is seeing all my friends at the shows. I still consider
myself a newcomer, but I'm amazed that people my age can look so old at the
shows!!!! We only see each other a few times a year and I like to take advantage of
that time. I wish I had more time with Roy.
Third would be helping somebody with a bird and seeing it help them get
the feature they wanted from it.
Down the list would be the actual competition. I can have as much
enjoyment at a show whether I brought a show team or didn't. My business was a
competition, life is a competition, but my hobby doesn't have to be based on winning.
In your opinion are fantails throughout the country improving?
As a "newcomer" I can only speak of birds from the last 30 years in
general and only the last 22 in the US. I have seen birds 20 years ago that I would
love to have in my loft today. I have seen Pritchett whites, Diemer blacks,
and Larson bars that you would have trouble beating today. In general I think
there are MORE good birds spread around the country, in other words the quality
is deeper and in more lofts and in more colors. Twenty years ago you would
get pretty long odds on the champion at a major meet going beyond 3 or 4 guys.
At the CFC 75th last year there were 20 guys with a legitimate shot at the top
spot. I do not think the quality is as deep as it was in whites however. I
would bet that there are fewer breeders of whites now than 20 years ago. Many
breeders have whites as a sideline ( myself included) and not as the primary
color. Several people have concentrated more on the colors because of their
superior reproductive capabilities.
Although I never saw the bird in the flesh, take a look at Harry Little's
Tailmark #505 on page 392 of the July 1977 APJ Fantail Special and tell me if
you have seen a body like that recently? Maybe we should see if Mr. Little
has a clear copy of that photo to illustrate the point.
I think that many good birds have been sent oversees and this quality is
letting more people breed toward the North American standard in South Africa,
Europe and Australia.
I think that the sharing of information between fanciers via the internet
is going to launch us to a new level of understanding. We all nod our heads
about motherhood statements about legs and carriage and motion, BUT when you
really put it to the test we have very different ideas as has been evident to
those on the internet. Finding these differences is the first step to resolving
them, assuming everyone wants a unified ideal.
My dad and I raised various birds from pheasants, migratory ducks and
Canada geese from the time I was about 9 years old. I was always trapping blue
jays and cardinals and putting them in with the Wood ducks. One day my dad came
home with a pair of racing pigeons, and that was it. An old gentleman I met in
town was at the end of his showing career and had 2 or 3 pair in most
breeds. Over the winter he would not split them up and by spring he was over run
with mongrels. These were all mine!!!!! I used to fly EVERYTHING. Then I met
Cecil Behr, renowned LFCL breeder. in my home town of Port Colborne, Ontario. He
introduced me to something called a pigeon show, and I swear the night before we
went I didn't sleep a wink. ( Something of a tradition still at pigeon
shows!!!). We hit several small shows and then I heard of a man that bred good
fantails. This man was Jack Buchanan. He took me under his wing and took me to the
big fantail shows in Canada. The Royal Winter Fair, and the Canadian National
Exhibition. At the CNE I met Paul Polly ( the judge at 19 years old), Steve
Wallace, Robert Stephens, and Roy and Brian Pogue and most of the "old timers"
in the Canadian fantail scene. I think I was 16 by then and Brian likely 15!
Here I found others my age also interested in fantails. That same show season
time I met Bob Pommer and Mike Boyd. MY buddy Phillipo was around then too but
I didn't meet him until 1980. I remember Roy Pogue offering me reds and
yellows at that first show( 1967?) which I declined, but it has taken me another 33
years to take up that challenge.
My mom tried to keep a few pair of fantails for me while I was at
university, but they never made the 4 years. So after graduation I had to find a
job and a loft. The job took me to western Canada, for 22 long cold winters.
Describe your loft set up and how many pairs do you usually bred from.?
My wife would say "Too Many" ...........and at times I think I do breed
from too many pair. But I have this vision of a fantail when I close my eyes
and I cant seem to avoid using a bird that has a piece of that puzzle. When I
was trying to get families and lines going I suppose I was as high as 75 pair,
but recently I have used 45 cocks. These cocks are all in individuals and are
backed up by a team of 40 pair of rollers and many hens. I am a firm believer
in individuals if you really want to squeeze the max out of every cock bird. My
except they are higher ( 20") because I think the cocks hit their wings on the
ceiling with anything less. Each pen is 3 feet long and made from welded steel.
These "batteries" are 3 individuals across and 3 high so there are 9 pens in
each, .all free standing outside in the sun and the wind and the rain. So with
5 sets of these I am ready for 45 cocks. The rollers are in a separate loft
10 feet by 24 feet, open bred, more Eggleston style. The young bird loft is 10
by 45 feet.
In the "off season" the partitions come out of these "batteries" and then
all of a sudden I have 15 shelves that are 9 feet by 2 1/2 feet. Here I place
various birds, sometimes old birds, sometimes questionable young, or even the
show teams. The ideal would be to have the birds in the individuals for 5
months and then not use those pens for the rest of the year. Similarly for the
before and I think it keeps the birds healthier and breaks any cycles of nasties.
I have seen people get a bug in their birds and take years to get rid of it,
if ever. Of course there isn't much that's a better sanitizer than a baking 108 F
Arizona sun! I am one loft short of having that system at the current time,
( or raising 100 too many babies)
Then I have a separate judging area with 4 walking pens permanently in
place and holding pens. I spend a good deal of time on this patio to the "guest
house". It is removed from the lofts so the birds cannot see or hear the
other birds. It also has a fridge, sink, TV and toilet. Next year I plan to add a
fan and lighting.
Do you medicate your birds and if so describe your program.?
I have always tried to stay away from medications. I started out doing
all the stuff that the books tell you, but found that if you do not bring in new
birds, and if you quarantine your show team, and if you keep the wild doves
away then you don't need all that stuff. I went 8 years in Canada without any
medicines, but I treated my show birds before, during and after the shows in a
building 1/8 mile away.
I hope everybody is vaccinating their birds for PMV1, this is a must and
I think anybody that takes a bird to a show that isn't vaccinated is
irresponsible both to themselves, and everybody else.
I do give my birds vitamins and electrolytes and I am a believer in
friendly bacteria. ( So much so that IF I bring a strange bird home I put the
droppings of my birds in its water. ) My quarantine setup here is not as good as I
had in Canada, but the birds are still a good 50 feet away, and with the
shelves I am not walking in the show teams litter and dragging it everywhere.
Things are very much different in the desert, what works here may not work
elsewhere. I was lucky that I had pigeon friends already here so I didn't have to
learn all over. BUT it is VERY different breeding in 108 F in a climate that favors
the arachnids of every description. You develop excellent peripheral vision.
Now all that said, I do give my birds brewers yeast, garlic, organic
iodine. Keeping them healthy is the key. If one gets sick,,, I kill it. I do not
mess with them. Even young birds I have found those that you mess with never
amount to anything, and even if they turn out to be a show bird do you really
want to breed from it? Last year I messed with a young silver that had tons of
potential. I forgot how weak it had been earlier and mailed it to my partner to
be part of our show team. It died the day after arriving. Keep them healthy
and you wont need all that stuff.
Now, I do keep antibiotics on hand and respectfully I decline to tell you
what I use because I think we are best to all use different antibiotics. Plus
as long as people are blanket treating their entire flocks on a regular and
unnecessary basis we better keep using a wide range of meds. If we should give
each other a bug at the shows we have a better chance of knocking it out when we
get home that way. I had terrible fertility in the first 2 rounds last year
after all the shows that the team of Diemer/Vincent showed at, but I broke down
and used the antibiotic and everything was fine. BUT to systematically use
this and that every quarter or before the breeding season I think is wrong.. If
you have to do that systematically to keep your birds healthy then the
problem lies in your loft or husbandry.
What does a fantail need to be a part of your program.?
I loved the answer Bill O'dell gave a couple of bulletins back to one of
your questions. Typical O'Dell. He answered the question in one sentence and
said more than most guys say in an entire article. He said something to the
effect that " if you want to advance then you have to use the extremes"..........
So my answer to the above question is "a piece of the puzzle"
BUT Ed you know me too well to leave it at that. McKee has said several
times "it depends where you are at"....... And that is a very true statement.
As you realize you are slipping somewhere you need to emphasize that a bit
more. Hopefully you still have it SOMEWHERE in your birds, if not hopefully your
buddy that is working similar blood still has it.
What faults will you not breed from.?
I have bred from head sliders, split tailed, peak crested, grouse legged,
web footed, hocked legged, blind, crippled, and stupid birds IF they had a
PIECE OF THE PUZZLE............ but not from a weakling............ Now what you
want is a bird that will throw the PIECE and not the trash. That's the trick.
And that's called progeny testing. Or as I have said too many times for some
"Its what they throw, not what they show". In order to do this you have to try a
lot of birds. Young cocks make up 50-60% of my team every year. But I do have
one 5 year old cock, three 4 year olds, and you wouldn't want any of them
I bet !!!!!!! I had used that 5 year old so much I thought I was done with
him, but decided to take him to the farthest blood I could find. Blood that had
not been shared since 1988. I put them together and raised some of my best
birds this year.......white, silver, dilute indigo, and a few "pieds". McKee
would call that "heterosis" and O'Dell might call it "tamed outcross".
Is there something that you think the fantails of today are lacking? If so, what?
There are a lot of good fantails that are lacking the right address. They
should be in Tucson!!!! I think that the pieces are all out there, and in the
fantail genepool. ( at least what we now consider the fantail genepool thanks
to those that made all the mongrels years back). The trick is to capture the
great feature and to break the linkages associated with it. When you break
that linkage DON'T go back. The big tails have their problems that come with the
package. The great diggers have their baggage too. The little dancing birds by
and large have their own problems too. Put all the good stuff from these birds
together and leave the baggage and you have a CHAMPION. Then try and
reproduce it!!!!
What advise would you give a fantail breeder just starting out?
HAVE FUN.....................Study the standard and formulate your
visualization of the ideal. Since it appears we will never get a consensus on a
drawing of the ideal, formulate your own. If the idea of breeding a bird like
that excites you then you are a fantail man. If the idea of just seeing that bird
in anyone's loft excites you then you are a fantail fancier. Try to get a copy
of the Bolton/Kingkinger article. Read everything you can get your hands on
especially from Ostrander, Champ and McKee. ( you might have to read McKee's
several times to unencrypt it) Get your hands on the old specials, or borrow
them if you can. Don't restrict yourself to fantail material. The racing guys
are way ahead of us in husbandry, and the chicken guys are very helpful.
Watch the judging and attend shows. Look for birds that show a little of
what you visualize and try to overlook the "baggage" on the first mating. Read
my article in the DEBUT special and try pulling the pieces out of the soup
and gradually leave the broth behind. Show your young birds and try to see why
you maybe didn't place as high as you hoped. Turn birds for a good judge and
talk to him between classes. When your bird comes out, take a good look at the
birds that beat it,,,, THEN take your bird to its cage ( Schabert saying).
Talk to Mr. Altpeter, anybody that has won the Central 17 times and had one of
the last 4 birds in the finals last year is the man to seek out.
When you feel you know where your birds are strong and weak develop a
plan. Don't bring in a bird without a good reason for doing it. Pump those
breeders. Try to get everything out of them in one year. Try your cocks on 3 hens
regardless of what color. You don't have to mate a blue hen to a blue cock. Make
your decision on which birds to breed the next year based on the young they
gave you with several mates. Study those young and find the common weakness that
parent threw for you. Learn from this and mate smarter the next year.
When you finally get that click mating use them all. There will be time
to share your good fortune with your friends when you have bred those young for
a year or two. You will be stronger for it and of even more help to your
friends down the road.
What part of the fancy do you enjoy the most?
I enjoy the breeding part the most. I think I would breed fantails if no
one else in the world did. I enjoy sitting with my buddy Earl Biedermann every
Sunday having a pint and looking at his or my new squeakers. I enjoy getting
that youngster that has the best of the parents even though I thought it was a
long shot when I put them together.
Second for me is seeing all my friends at the shows. I still consider
myself a newcomer, but I'm amazed that people my age can look so old at the
shows!!!! We only see each other a few times a year and I like to take advantage of
that time. I wish I had more time with Roy.
Third would be helping somebody with a bird and seeing it help them get
the feature they wanted from it.
Down the list would be the actual competition. I can have as much
enjoyment at a show whether I brought a show team or didn't. My business was a
competition, life is a competition, but my hobby doesn't have to be based on winning.
In your opinion are fantails throughout the country improving?
As a "newcomer" I can only speak of birds from the last 30 years in
general and only the last 22 in the US. I have seen birds 20 years ago that I would
love to have in my loft today. I have seen Pritchett whites, Diemer blacks,
and Larson bars that you would have trouble beating today. In general I think
there are MORE good birds spread around the country, in other words the quality
is deeper and in more lofts and in more colors. Twenty years ago you would
get pretty long odds on the champion at a major meet going beyond 3 or 4 guys.
At the CFC 75th last year there were 20 guys with a legitimate shot at the top
spot. I do not think the quality is as deep as it was in whites however. I
would bet that there are fewer breeders of whites now than 20 years ago. Many
breeders have whites as a sideline ( myself included) and not as the primary
color. Several people have concentrated more on the colors because of their
superior reproductive capabilities.
Although I never saw the bird in the flesh, take a look at Harry Little's
Tailmark #505 on page 392 of the July 1977 APJ Fantail Special and tell me if
you have seen a body like that recently? Maybe we should see if Mr. Little
has a clear copy of that photo to illustrate the point.
I think that many good birds have been sent oversees and this quality is
letting more people breed toward the North American standard in South Africa,
Europe and Australia.
I think that the sharing of information between fanciers via the internet
is going to launch us to a new level of understanding. We all nod our heads
about motherhood statements about legs and carriage and motion, BUT when you
really put it to the test we have very different ideas as has been evident to
those on the internet. Finding these differences is the first step to resolving
them, assuming everyone wants a unified ideal.
2491 N AMBERWOOD DR
TUCSON, AZ 85749
PHONE: 520-749-6876
E-MAIL: vincentbob@aol.com
WEB PAGE: http://www.angelfire
TUCSON, AZ 85749
PHONE: 520-749-6876
E-MAIL: vincentbob@aol.com
WEB PAGE: http://www.angelfire